...no one is buying it...Uvalde chief is out...

Vegas12

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Now you see who and how the response was called... many hung the cops on scene but it's the IC call that runs the response.

Give me you knowledge/views on this, please.

Everyone is outraged regarding not breaching the class room, being in the hallway on standby etc...

When I looked at an early time line, the carnage was well over before anyone was on scene.

If there were lives being lost during that waiting period, obviously the inaction would have been the cause....but I'm not sure that was the scenario.

Question is: would have lives been saved charging in blasting away??
 
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Wretch

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If there were windows on the classroom, I can't see why one team didn't knock on the door and a second team blast him into the hereafter through the window, once he was distracted...

...if, that was the setup.

Always room for finger pointing and blame, after the fact, it seems.

It's the gun owners that are catching the most shit for now, right after the cops on scene.
 

rumble phish

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Give me you knowledge/views on this, please.

Everyone is outraged regarding not breaching the class room, being in the hallway on standby etc...

When I looked at an early time line, the carnage was well over before anyone was on scene.

If there were lives being lost during that waiting period, obviously the inaction would have been the cause....but I'm not sure that was the scenario.

Question is: would have lives bern saved charging in blasting away??
What I have heard/read, from more than one source, is that crying/screaming, and gunshots could be heard by the teams in the hallway and just outside while they were on "standby". If that is true, it truly makes me sick to my stomach. Hard to "Back the Blue" with shit going around like this. This is why I have always respected an officer's authority, but I've NEVR held them up as hero's just because they were officers. They're just people. People who make mistakes. People who want to keep their jobs. People who want to go home to their families at the end of the day. Most will do what they are told, not what is right.
 

Vegas12

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I just can't see how instinct didn't kick in on some of those cops, you know? Fuck the consequences type shit, and we've all done it at some point.

As bad ass as I'd want to be, in the back of my mine I would be thinking about causing a gun fight and stray bullets......and causing even more casualties.

Monday morning quarterbacking is ez.
 

Vegas12

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What I have heard/read, from more than one source, is that crying/screaming, and gunshots could be heard by the teams in the hallway and just outside while they were on "standby". If that is true, it truly makes me sick to my stomach. Hard to "Back the Blue" with shit going around like this. This is why I have always respected an officer's authority, but I've NEVR held them up as hero's just because they were officers. They're just people. People who make mistakes. People who want to keep their jobs. People who want to go home to their families at the end of the day. Most will do what they are told, not what is right.

I linked a time-line awhile back when the 1st criticism was coming in about the hour response time.

Now your saying they were listening to people being killed one by one.

I'm not defending anything/anybody only to say that I find it hard to accept that the casualties weren't all in during the 1st couple minutes of the piece of garbage entering the school.

If you can find the version you're writing about, I'd like to read it.
 

Rhino

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Give me you knowledge/views on this, please.

Everyone is outraged regarding not breaching the class room, being in the hallway on standby etc...

When I looked at an early time line, the carnage was well over before anyone was on scene.

If there were lives being lost during that waiting period, obviously the inaction would have been the cause....but I'm not sure that was the scenario.

Question is: would have lives bern saved charging in blasting away??
Only way your going to charge into a situation that is blind will be if the shooter was still shooting kids..

Other wise it's treated as a hostage situation. If there was 95% Intel of just what the inside layout with detailing where the innocents where and whare the shooter was and IF you had one HIGHLY TRAINED TEAM (think a seal team here not even a mid city swat team trains to a high level to not have casualties in a situation like this)

Just like ever call out that doesn't go the way every one is trained for a new SOP will be trained. And we be here discussing that failure as there is no SOP ... incidents change and every one will be a different case that calls for a custom response.
 

Ninjaman12R

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As bad ass as I'd want to be, in the back of my mine I would be thinking about causing a gun fight and stray bullets......and causing even more casualties.

Monday morning quarterbacking is ez.
I see what you're saying, and to some extent I agree. But I don't think it's necessarily "bad ass" at all when you are trained, fully armed, and protected in body armor. It's your job, the right thing to do, and they took an oath to protect and serve. Orders be damned, unarmed folks went in for crissakes...
 

rumble phish

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I linked a time-line awhile back when the 1st criticism was coming in about the hour response time.

Now your saying they were listening to people being killed one by one.

I'm not defending anything/anybody only to say that I find it hard to accept that the casualties weren't all in during the 1st couple minutes of the piece of garbage entering the school.

If you can find the version you're writing about, I'd like to read it.
Here's an article that says the shooting in the classroom was "sporadic" for most of the tie that the cops were waiting in the hallway.

19 Cops Waited In Hallway During Uvalde School Shooting For Nearly An Hour, Police Admit (yahoo.com)

102190
 

Vegas12

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I see what you're saying, and to some extent I agree. But I don't think it's necessarily "bad ass" at all when you are trained, fully armed, and protected in body armor. It's your job, the right thing to do, and they took an oath to protect and serve. Orders be damned, unarmed folks went in for crissakes...


Only way your going to charge into a situation that is blind will be if the shooter was still shooting kids..

Other wise it's treated as a hostage situation. If there was 95% Intel of just what the inside layout with detailing where the innocents where and whare the shooter was and IF you had one HIGHLY TRAINED TEAM (think a seal team here not even a mid city swat team trains to a high level to not have casualties in a situation like this)

Just like ever call out that doesn't go the way every one is trained for a new SOP will be trained. And we be here discussing that failure as there is no SOP ... incidents change and every one will be a different case that calls for a custom response.

Believe it or not, the oath thing is urban legend...

Doesn't mean there aren't people willing to risk their own lives....especially for children.

The hostage vs active shooter is still the question I don't believe has been answered.

Don't know how to write this other than to just write this:

It was a very target rich environment......rushing in blind, fully armored up, could have even caused more death.
 

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We have the police force that we as a society demanded, all the dudes that want to be the first thru the door to incinerate that piece of shit without regard for their own lives have all been pushed out of the profession, replaced by cowards. Our streets are policed by the lowest common denominator in American society, the badge is their only escalator.
 

Ninjaman12R

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Believe it or not, the oath thing is urban legend...

Doesn't mean there aren't people willing to risk their own lives....especially for children.

The hostage vs active shooter is still the question I don't believe has been answered.

Don't know how to write this other than to just write this:

It was a very target rich environment......rushing in blind, fully armored up, could have even caused more death.
Again I understand it could've been a really bad move. But they don't have to worry about it because they did nothing. I can't understand it, and maybe more light will be shed on it that will make me say "I get it now"....but until then I'm still thinking wtf...😟
 

Vegas12

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Here's an article that says the shooting in the classroom was "sporadic" for most of the tie that the cops were waiting in the hallway.

19 Cops Waited In Hallway During Uvalde School Shooting For Nearly An Hour, Police Admit (yahoo.com)

View attachment 102190

You picked out one paragraph that makes LE look like shit.

You left out others that don't paint the same picture.

"At 11:33 p.m., Ramos entered the school through a rear door that had been propped open and fired more than 100 rounds into a pair of classrooms, McCraw said. He did not address why the door was propped open."


"But the commander inside the building — the school district's police chief, Pete Arredondo — decided the group should wait to confront the gunman, on the belief that the scene was no longer an active attack, McCraw said."


I find it more than likely that the initial 100 shots are what did the carnage.....but I get it, if one more life was lost after the cops were in position, it sux.

Monday morning QBing.
 

Ninjaman12R

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We have the police force that we as a society demanded, all the dudes that want to be the first thru the door to incinerate that piece of shit without regard for their own lives have all been pushed out of the profession, replaced by cowards. Our streets are policed by the lowest common denominator in American society, the badge is their only escalator.
That makes more sense to me than anything else written on this thread!

Thank you!
 
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As bad ass as I'd want to be, in the back of my mine I would be thinking about causing a gun fight and stray bullets......and causing even more casualties.

Monday morning quarterbacking is ez.
Will take some time but read all of the documentation so far, much is new this week. Look at the timelines. 911 calls of kids reporting friends bleeding to death when there were over a dozen cops on scene! I am in the DFW area, and this is covered in spades here. Complete and utter failure of LEO on this one and there will be some very ugly settlements on the civil side and possible action on the criminal side before it is said and done. .
 
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You picked out one paragraph that makes LE look like shit.

You left out others that don't paint the same picture.

"At 11:33 p.m., Ramos entered the school through a rear door that had been propped open and fired more than 100 rounds into a pair of classrooms, McCraw said. He did not address why the door was propped open."


"But the commander inside the building — the school district's police chief, Pete Arredondo — decided the group should wait to confront the gunman, on the belief that the scene was no longer an active attack, McCraw said."


I find it more than likely that the initial 100 shots are what did the carnage.....but I get it, if one more life was lost after the cops were in position, it sux.

Monday morning QBing.
Gunfire started before he even got into the school! Was reported as well he shot at 2 other men when he wrecked the truck he was in.
 
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We're talking about the school....but thanks.
No you do not understand. The school was across the street. SO Gunman on the loose shooting at people across the street (kind of not quite directly across) from the Elementary school. This shows just how bad it was now doesn't it???????? LEO knew there was a situation BEFORE he every made it into the fricking school through a Unlocked emergency door that should under no circumstances be left unlocked.
 

Vegas12

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No you do not understand. The school was across the street. SO Gunman on the loose shooting at people across the street (kind of not quite directly across) from the Elementary school. This shows just how bad it was now doesn't it???????? LEO knew there was a situation BEFORE he every made it into the fricking school through a Unlocked emergency door that should under no circumstances be left unlocked.

Oh, I understand... and the locked door narrative has also changed many times.

Bottom line:

Asshole got into the school and fired 100 rounds before anyone knew where the fuck he went...unless that story changes again.
 
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...wow...talk aboot projection...

...why so bitter...???...knees hurt...???...stop eating so much...

...you don't need to be a fat pussy...

...I doubt anyone who has gotten to know me doubts what I would have done...

...you've been second guessing all over this thread...it's disgusting...
 

Vegas12

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...wow...talk aboot projection...

...why so bitter...???...knees hurt...???...stop eating so much...

...you don't need to be a fat pussy...

...I doubt anyone who has gotten to know me doubts what I would have done...

...you've been second guessing all over this thread...it's disgusting...


You're such a bad ass Walturd.....you wouldn't of done shit.

You can't even take care of yourself.

And no, I haven't been 2nd guessing shit.

I don't think anyone knows the entire scenario....much less a dope smoking loser.

Oh, and knees are fine...thanks for asking.
 

Vegas12

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The scenario is, once it’s an active shooting, it doesn’t revert to a barricaded suspect. Active shooting means wounded people on the ground that need helping now and the cops should’ve gone in and taken care of business as soon as they got there.

That's what's been up for debate.....was it still an active shooter when the cops arrived??

In RP's link, it mentions both.
 

Stetson

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That's what's been up for debate.....was it still an active shooter when the cops arrived??

In RP's link, it mentions both.

I think you're getting too hung up on what "active shooter" means in the context of LEO training and response. The active shooting had already begun. Whether or not the gunfire abated for the moment doesn't matter. Cops took fire, doesn't get more active than that. They then retreated back down the hallway and sat around for another 40 something minutes while kids bled out.
 
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