Ahmaud

Your Car Is Slow

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I dont feel it was the right or wrong verdict, I certainly would not have done what they would have and at this point do not have any real shock or surprise (or disdain) at the verdict.

I do feel that after all the societal and media pressure since this began, they were fucked regardless and unable to have a fair trial...but wont argue that they wouldnt have still been found guilty even if they were able to get that etc.

I spelled it out above, I think there are reasonable assumptions that can be made on what happened that day. another example of really poor decision making on both sides resulting in someone being shot.

I doubt the guys truly set out to actually kill the kid....and I doubt the kid was just out jogging etc.
 

Vegas12

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I dont feel it was the right or wrong verdict, I certainly would not have done what they would have and at this point do not have any real shock or surprise (or disdain) at the verdict.

I do feel that after all the societal and media pressure since this began, they were fucked regardless and unable to have a fair trial...but wont argue that they wouldnt have still been found guilty even if they were able to get that etc.

I spelled it out above, I think there are reasonable assumptions that can be made on what happened that day. another example of really poor decision making on both sides resulting in someone being shot.

I doubt the guys truly set out to actually kill the kid....and I doubt the kid was just out jogging etc.

Your last sentence gives me pause....I think there are people that are so filled with hate for POC (which is the true definition of racism) that they were looking for any reason to bag themselves a leprechaun.

We will never know, but I honestly don't think they would have given chase to a white guy..

It's what made me sick regarding the zimmermscum 911 call...."they always get away with this stuff." We all know who "they" are.

And we will always agree that AA wasn't the perfect little boy.....but isn't everyone after death??
 

hedgehog

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Surely they would have fingerprinted the hammer?
That’s what gave me pause.

We’re they going to try and use it the same as a ‘drop piece’, but didn’t get the chance to get dabs on it?

If it did have dabs on it, the defense would have brought it up.

If it was the case, that would not have been good, and would probably have made the charges more serious.
 

BigBusa

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and now the riots begin
white people dont riot. All calm. Weird huh? If it went the other way though... every singe member of the national guard, fire dept and police dept wouldn't be home today eating turkey with their family.
 

Vegas12

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That’s what gave me pause.

We’re they going to try and use it the same as a ‘drop piece’, but didn’t get the chance to get dabs on it?

If it did have dabs on it, the defense would have brought it up.

If it was the case, that would not have been good, and would probably have made the charges more serious.

More serious than what??

I don't think planting evidence would have added anything to the life sentences...

But I get your drift.....either side would have used it if it would have bolstered their case
 

rumble phish

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Surely they would have fingerprinted the hammer?
That’s what gave me pause.

We’re they going to try and use it the same as a ‘drop piece’, but didn’t get the chance to get dabs on it?

If it did have dabs on it, the defense would have brought it up.

If it was the case, that would not have been good, and would probably have made the charges more serious.
Get it through your heads guys... the hammer was/is irrelevant. It has fuck all to do with the issue at hand, since the guy who pulled the trigger admitted on the stand that AA was unarmed and did not threaten him. Period. End of discussion.
 

Vegas12

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Get it through your heads guys... the hammer was/is irrelevant. It has fuck all to do with the issue at hand, since the guy who pulled the trigger admitted on the stand that AA was unarmed and did not threaten him. Period. End of discussion.
You're obviously correct, but I think hog is suggesting it might have been a plant which somehow would make the murder charges worse...

"If it was the case, that would not have been good, and would probably have made the charges more serious."

I suppose it could have added a few more years to the life sentence...
 

Your Car Is Slow

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Your last sentence gives me pause....I think there are people that are so filled with hate for POC (which is the true definition of racism) that they were looking for any reason to bag themselves a leprechaun.

We will never know, but I honestly don't think they would have given chase to a white guy..
and I think thats a huge problem with america today. noone will ever argue that a certain percentage of people are just flat out fucking assholes of the highest order. racist, sexist, elitist, whatever. Thats never going away just like crime itself wont ever go away, thus its easy to ALWAYS claim there is a problem with "racism/sexism/nepotism/etc" because of course it still exists, its just fed to you now as if its almost happening more often than not...vs the other way around and attempting to pigeonhole otherwise normal people who probably agree with your cause when it comes down to it...as falling into those categories simply because they dont make a point to publicly denounce it or otherwise support your cause with every waking breath.

the issue is in assuming the percentage of folks you meet on a daily basis that fall into these categories is much higher than it really is. While id argue the opposite.

put yourself in a room of 1000 people, and ill never argue that some of them are shitbags of the highest order. also likely a good chance that some of them are violent felons, or sex offenders etc. I probably wouldnt make the claim that the problem has infested everyone in the room when the % is so small, but it certainly seems like thats how society has become.

its just gone beyond stereotypes at this point.
 

Vegas12

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Discussion starts around the 50 minute mark.


Here's the judge's jury instruction....pretty fucking clear to me:

:A private citizen’s warrantless arrest must occur immediately after the perpetration of the offense, or in the case of felonies, during escape. If the observer fails to make the arrest immediately after the commission of the offense or during escape in the case of felonies, his power to do so is extinguished."




"The McClansmen had no direct or immediate knowledge that Ahmaud Arbery had committed even a misdemeanor offense that day when they began their chase. And to this day there’s no evidence that Arbery committed a felony on the day he was killed or any other. One of the officers who’d previously spoken to Gregory McMichael about people wandering through the unfinished home of his neighbor told jurors that if he had been able to determine that Arbery was one of the individuals captured on surveillance video, he would have given him a warning that he was trespassing, which is a misdemeanor and not a felony under Georgia law."

The verdict stands...
 

Vegas12

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and I think thats a huge problem with america today. noone will ever argue that a certain percentage of people are just flat out fucking assholes of the highest order. racist, sexist, elitist, whatever. Thats never going away just like crime itself wont ever go away, thus its easy to ALWAYS claim there is a problem with "racism/sexism/nepotism/etc" because of course it still exists, its just fed to you now as if its almost happening more often than not...vs the other way around and attempting to pigeonhole otherwise normal people who probably agree with your cause when it comes down to it...as falling into those categories simply because they dont make a point to publicly denounce it or otherwise support your cause with every waking breath.

the issue is in assuming the percentage of folks you meet on a daily basis that fall into these categories is much higher than it really is. While id argue the opposite.

put yourself in a room of 1000 people, and ill never argue that some of them are shitbags of the highest order. also likely a good chance that some of them are violent felons, or sex offenders etc. I probably wouldnt make the claim that the problem has infested everyone in the room when the % is so small, but it certainly seems like thats how society has become.

its just gone beyond stereotypes at this point.

I think I get what you're writing.....but I don't think those fools are an exception to that....I believe they were 100% racist rednecks.

I've written this before, and it applied to daddy McMichael to a T:

I don't believe you can be hired on any legit PD if you're racist.....but the job can absolutely make you racist.

I'm not pulling that out of my ass....I hung out with LAPD officers as a teen and was told that by not only white cops but black cops.

Again repeating what I've said before...my black neighbor is a lieutenant, or higher now, on LVMPD.....he says he will retire at the 1st opportunity because of the hood rats....some of the non stop abuse he endures is he's a trader to his race.

Now that doesn't mean their attitude towards POC would cause them to murder.....but I'm fairly convinced it did cause the McMichaels to.

That stereotype problem you wrote about also applies to AA.....everyone that thinks the McClansmen are innocent pull the leprechaun card instantly.

I'm pro 2A, moderate with a lean to the right...I cannot stand the extreme ON BOTH sides, I think the alt right and the extreme left are the biggest problem with this country ATM.
 

Brokenfly

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All partys actions combined to interpret law in spur of moment only to break the law and kill deserve punishment.
Intent falls on the black dude.
Not his color mind you.
Clusterfuck.
 

BigBusa

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If he continued to run beyond the white truck and not engage the man with the shotgun would he still be alive? Undoubtedly. These white guys weren't out to kill black people jogging.

If he was white would he still be alive? No. This has nothing to do with race. The dude, grabbed the barrel of a shotgun while punching the guns owner repeatedly. What did he think might happen?

Appeals will focus on him being on probation, his criminal record, his mental health and his previous attempts to steal from the same location. None of which was allowed into the 1st trial.

These guys will get freed but it's gonna take some doing.
 

LuxPride

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Racism aside, one thing I've been wondering about is why all three of them got a murder charge?

Don't get me wrong, they all fucked up, they all deserve to be punished for taking it way too far.
But wasn't one of the guys (Roddie) videoing in a truck watching the scene unfold? How can three shots be fired by one guy, but 3 dudes catch a murder rap? I'd understand if they were beating the guy up and he died from the blows, but the guy videoing it didn't even touch AA, much less shoot and kill him (unless I'm wrong and missed it completely). I understand guilty by association and what can come from hanging out with the wrong people while they commit a crime. But this was a pseudo chase that turned into a fight that then resulted in the shooting of AA. The guy in the truck taking vids could have been a gardener that knew the dimwits who were in the chase who just stopped to slow down. Ya, he knew the pursuers, but was he involved in the actual murder, no.

I get it the jury decided, it's a wrap, and I don't have much sympathy for an armed man whose best idea was to chase someone with nothing in their hands. I only care because it seems to be if you're too close to someone personally, and coincidentally that person happens to end up in a jackpot that results in a crime scene, you can catch a murder charge. They claimed Roddie tried to use his car as a weapon and box him in with it, but that seems a stretch because if you look at the video he was pretty far from the actual scene and couldn't have much control of the situation. I'd for sure say he's a guilty accomplice, but a murderer? I don't know about that.

I guess I do care that after this decision, the legal precedent could be used against let's say a couple of friends that go to a rally (pick a cause/side) things go sideways, your buddy gets into some shit (his own doing or circumstantial), people get hurt, and now you're facing life because you knew one another. On the flip side, could an entire origination be held liable if a life is lost? If (pick a cause/side) organizes a meetup, you could say they all know one another, they coordinated their movements like the guy in the truck (Roddie). If a jackpot ensues then the whole group is involved.... If there were 10 neighbors who were looking for AA, (because that's what neighbors usually do, help out). If your neighbor says "Hey this kid just bolted from XYZ's house, I think he stole something" I'd venture most neighbors would at least look around to see if he's still local, maybe drive around to see if any other houses were robbed or check on the local old-timers. So are they all guilty because they all came around to the same street at the same time, yet only one guy pulled the trigger?

Justice was handed down, none of these guys seem to be worth much in the big scene of things. But now what? In a panic, the DA threw the book at everyone after the fact to keep the community from being burnt down, but now I think we're more fucked than we realize. A getaway driver is usually charged because they planned to commit a crime even though he wasn't in the bank. Now even if there was no crime intended, one can get a charge just by being there and knowing someone if a crime happens.
 
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Here's the judge's jury instruction....pretty fucking clear to me:

:A private citizen’s warrantless arrest must occur immediately after the perpetration of the offense, or in the case of felonies, during escape. If the observer fails to make the arrest immediately after the commission of the offense or during escape in the case of felonies, his power to do so is extinguished."




"The McClansmen had no direct or immediate knowledge that Ahmaud Arbery had committed even a misdemeanor offense that day when they began their chase. And to this day there’s no evidence that Arbery committed a felony on the day he was killed or any other. One of the officers who’d previously spoken to Gregory McMichael about people wandering through the unfinished home of his neighbor told jurors that if he had been able to determine that Arbery was one of the individuals captured on surveillance video, he would have given him a warning that he was trespassing, which is a misdemeanor and not a felony under Georgia law."

The verdict stands...
I take it you didn't watch it?

It's a great discussion, worth the listen.
 

BigBusa

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Racism aside, one thing I've been wondering about is why all three of them got a murder charge?

Don't get me wrong, they all fucked up, they all deserve to be punished for taking it way too far.
But wasn't one of the guys (Roddie) videoing in a truck watching the scene unfold? How can three shots be fired by one guy, but 3 dudes catch a murder rap? I'd understand if they were beating the guy up and he died from the blows, but the guy videoing it didn't even touch AA, much less shoot and kill him (unless I'm wrong and missed it completely). I understand guilty by association and what can come from hanging out with the wrong people while they commit a crime. But this was a pseudo chase that turned into a fight that then resulted in the shooting of AA. The guy in the truck taking vids could have been a gardener that knew the dimwits who were in the chase who just stopped to slow down. Ya, he knew the pursuers, but was he involved in the actual murder, no.

I get it the jury decided, it's a wrap, and I don't have much sympathy for an armed man whose best idea was to chase someone with nothing in their hands. I only care because it seems to be if you're too close to someone personally, and coincidentally that person happens to end up in a jackpot that results in a crime scene, you can catch a murder charge. They claimed Roddie tried to use his car as a weapon and box him in with it, but that seems a stretch because if you look at the video he was pretty far from the actual scene and couldn't have much control of the situation. I'd for sure say he's a guilty accomplice, but a murderer? I don't know about that.

I guess I do care that after this decision, the legal precedent could be used against let's say a couple of friends that go to a rally (pick a cause/side) things go sideways, your buddy gets into some shit (his own doing or circumstantial), people get hurt, and now you're facing life because you knew one another. On the flip side, could an entire origination be held liable if a life is lost? If (pick a cause/side) organizes a meetup, you could say they all know one another, they coordinated their movements like the guy in the truck (Roddie). If a jackpot ensues then the whole group is involved.... If there were 10 neighbors who were looking for AA, (because that's what neighbors usually do, help out). If your neighbor says "Hey this kid just bolted from XYZ's house, I think he stole something" I'd venture most neighbors would at least look around to see if he's still local, maybe drive around to see if any other houses were robbed or check on the local old-timers. So are they all guilty because they all came around to the same street at the same time, yet only one guy pulled the trigger?

Justice was handed down, none of these guys seem to be worth much in the big scene of things. But now what? In a panic, the DA threw the book at everyone after the fact to keep the community from being burnt down, but now I think we're more fucked than we realize. A getaway driver is usually charged because they planned to commit a crime even though he wasn't in the bank. Now even if there was no crime intended, one can get a charge just by being there and knowing someone if a crime happens.
Nobody wanted riots. That's why they were found guilty. Roddie had nothing to do with it. Imagine if everyone who videoed a murder was also indicted?! Just filming the murder makes you as guilty as the person who actually did the killing?! CRAZY! Again, it's all to appease the black folk. Please don't riot... please. Don't burn down our cities. Please. Look... we convicted an inoccent man. Is that enough to keep you from rioting?
 

Vegas12

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I take it you didn't watch it?

It's a great discussion, worth the listen.

It didn't say anything that hasn't been mentioned before.

It mentioned the judge didn't give clear jury instruction on the citizen's arrest law....I quoted the judge's jury instruction and an opinion on why it was spot on.

The verdict stands.
 

Brokenfly

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The law will use citizens right to record or document against themselves if it serves the state I suppose.
Between ring type cameras and what people carry privacy is doomed.
The state gets stronger.
 

Anal Disco

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This case isn't a sign of the justice system working, it's the justice system working when it absolutely, positively had no other choice but to drag itself out of bed as a last resort.

The thing that blows my mind is that nothing would have ever happened had a local journalist, Larry Hobbs of the Brunswick News, not pursued the story. Even with the video of the murder, if they had managed to keep it under wraps, none of the outrage would have followed.

They would have gotten away with it.

It's wild to think your actions covering a local news story (Brunswick News has a circulation of 20,000 people) would eventually snowball into a national controversy resulting in 3 men going to prison on murder charges.

From Larry Hobbs' facebook page:

 

Snail

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There's a trick to taking a handgun away from a person if they're close, and the handgun isn't a snubby.

Practice and its pretty easy. Suggest you check carefully, and then check carefully again to make sure the handgun is truly unloaded. A revolver works best, 6" barrel Here's how:

One hand slaps the barrel, the other hand slaps the wrist, sideways.

Note whether the gun is held left or right handed, and slap in the direction that pulls the trigger away from the his trigger finger.
The effect is twofold, one it pulls the trigget away, two it stresses the shooters finger tips and cams the gun against his thumb and bottom of his hand. Gun will fly out of his hand, and land on the floor, still cocked.

To practice, have your assistant hold the gun at your belly, within easy arms reach, with the instructions not to 'shoot' until he sees your hands move. Its easier thsn it sounds.

Oh, don't ask Alec Baldwin to be your assistant.
 

rumble phish

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This is the full video plus an analysis of it section by section:

Well, there ya have it. AA did, in fact, lunge for the gun and take a swing at the guy holding the gun. The fought over the firearm for a few seconds before he is shot. That being said, that fact the three men retrieved guns and chased AA down destroys their claim of self-defense.

Lessons on both sides;

If you find yourself confronted by three armed men, DO NOT try to disarm one or any of them. It is almost guaranteed not to end up in your favor.

on the other hand, if you see someone "jogging" through your hood but did not see them commit any crime or threaten anyone DO NOT chase them down with guns and confront them. You will be fucked if things go south and you end up "needing" to use your gun.

Lesson for all involved... "Don't start 'nuthin, won't be 'nuthin".
 

Your Car Is Slow

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I think I get what you're writing.....but I don't think those fools are an exception to that....I believe they were 100% racist rednecks.

I've written this before, and it applied to daddy McMichael to a T:

I don't believe you can be hired on any legit PD if you're racist.....but the job can absolutely make you racist.

I'm not pulling that out of my ass....I hung out with LAPD officers as a teen and was told that by not only white cops but black cops.

Again repeating what I've said before...my black neighbor is a lieutenant, or higher now, on LVMPD.....he says he will retire at the 1st opportunity because of the hood rats....some of the non stop abuse he endures is he's a trader to his race.

Now that doesn't mean their attitude towards POC would cause them to murder.....but I'm fairly convinced it did cause the McMichaels to.

That stereotype problem you wrote about also applies to AA.....everyone that thinks the McClansmen are innocent pull the leprechaun card instantly.

I'm pro 2A, moderate with a lean to the right...I cannot stand the extreme ON BOTH sides, I think the alt right and the extreme left are the biggest problem with this country ATM.
agree completely.... dealing with the side of society NOONE wants to admit exists as your actual job day in and day out will certainly change a person.

per the other part, im not trying to argue that those 3 werent in that category of fuckwits...they may very well be. I was more on the point that society seems to have shifted to believe those people who think like that are a much more significant % of the population than they really are. Id LIKE to think that their intentions were simply trying to curb the crime in their area and things escalated out of control. If their goal from the start was to have a lynchin....it seems pretty fucking foolish to video it. prisons however arent full of smart people so who knows.

at the end of the day everyone involved paid a hefty price. Some will learn from it, some will not...and still others will use it as an example to further divide society across racial/political lines. I dont believe there is anyone "on the fence" about racism/sexism/etc. either you are a racist or you arent. shoving the constant messages down peoples throats isnt going to suddenly make a racist not racist etc, and instead is likely to simply just annoy people who would otherwise likely be on your side in the first place while having little to no impact on the people who truly think that way as a part of normal life.
 
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