2012 Super Tenere Brake Question

[RollieFree]

Any of you know why?..

I was riding yesterday off road and going down a long grade. Dropped into neutral and coasted for a bit with the engine idling running maybe 10 mph. Went for a little rear brake and it went straight to the floor. Zero rear brakes. Pumped it a couple times and it came back. A minute later, the same thing. Once I dropped it back into gear, the brakes came back to life. WTF?
RF

 

[caffeineracer]

Sounds like brake fade or boiling the the brake fluid. Rear brake may have started dragging during the ride and over heated. I'd service the brakes and change the fluid.

 

[Master-Cylinder]

I've run into that problem with Harley's and BMW's. On those, it is the control valve taking a dump.
But, I've never seen it on a Japanese motorcycle.
Maybe changes the fluid like Caffine said. Could have been something caught on the disc, a little twig or rock and pushed the pad back. Or...Trump.
Honda had an issue with calipers getting their pistons pushed in from floating disc's. They solved the problem with slightly thicker calipers seals. The slightly thicker seals gripped the piston ever so slightly more.

 

[hagrid]

The slightly thicker seals gripped the piston ever so slightly more.

Like your el pené in _schiavo's hand after his carpal tunnel surgery.

 

[Terry_Schiavo]

um I do not touch any pene

 

[agri]

remember taking the new at the time 1000cc vstrom 2016 to Mt Washington.
Well, coming down the hill which is pretty steep , you can not turn the abs off. I had some real panic on a few sections when I had no brakes . In costa rica coming down a mountain(over an hour) in the rain, in red slippery mud I overheated the rear brake on a 450 KTM. I can say that was terrifying.

 

[WarpSpeed]

No idea, I've not experienced that yet on my 2013.

 

[Master-Cylinder]

You could dump in DOT 5.1 fluid, it can take a bit more temp than DOT 3 or 4.

 

[RollieFree]

I definitely did not overheat them. I was not even on the brakes, just coasting along. Once in awhile a very short touch on the fronts. I feel like it has to be something electronic. As I said, I could pump it and get them back as if it had a failing master cylinder but everytime the first pump was zero. After dropping it back into gear, they were perfect. No trouble the rest of the day...until I stopped for a couple beers and a burrito and came out to find a flat rear tire for the second time in a week.
RF

 

[Wretch]

You could dump in DOT 5.1 fluid, it can take a bit more temp than DOT 3 or 4.

Straight swap or do you flush the old fluid?

Seems I recall mixing the two as less than beneficial.

 

[Master-Cylinder]

DOT 5.1 is not silicone based, it's just a new and improved DOT 4.
Changing it is flushing it.
If something calls for DOT 5, use DOT 5. If it calls for DOT 3 or 4, can use DOT 5.1.

 

[Bandit Man]

Is the back wheel loose, even just a little bit of movement is enough to spread the brakes a little and need pumping to bring them back.

 

[WarpSpeed]

So the rear brake is fine....as long as you are in gear..... and rolling forward but not when you are in neutral and rolling forward. I'll try that on my 2013 later today and let you know what happens.

 

[caffeineracer]

So the rear brake is fine....as long as you are in gear..... and rolling forward but not when you are in neutral and rolling forward. I'll try that on my 2013 later today and let you know what happens.

That will be an interesting test.
Mind blowing if you can reproduce the same symptom.

 

[NORTY]

Have you coasted with the engine "off?"

Results?

 

[maui]

I've run into that problem with Harley's and BMW's. On those, it is the control valve taking a dump.
But, I've never seen it on a Japanese motorcycle.
Maybe changes the fluid like Caffine said. Could have been something caught on the disc, a little twig or rock and pushed the pad back. Or...Trump.
Honda had an issue with calipers getting their pistons pushed in from floating disc's. They solved the problem with slightly thicker calipers seals. The slightly thicker seals gripped the piston ever so slightly more.

how do you diagnose a bad control valve? What causes them to fail?

 

[RollieFree]

So the rear brake is fine....as long as you are in gear..... and rolling forward but not when you are in neutral and rolling forward. I'll try that on my 2013 later today and let you know what happens.

Yes. Rolling forward, in neutral, engine at idle. It wasn't immediate and speed was 5-10 mph.
RF

 

[Master-Cylinder]

how do you diagnose a bad control valve? What causes them to fail?

Can't explain it, but you just know it's the mechanical section when you're working on it. And if it doesn't show an ABS code, probably mechanical. The Harleys failed so often, they started selling just the valve bodies, you'd take the electronic off the olde unit and put it on the new valve body. The Harley's use solenoids to control the brake pressure, I forgot how BMW does it, probably the same. But on the Harleys, the valves would stick, probably from non use and not changing the fluid every two years, whether it is ridden or not. I'm sure it has to have some tight tolerances in there.
The Harley control body has the mechanical valves, the electronic section has the solenoid coils and their electronics. The electronic section slips over the control section valves.
I think some ABS use motors to control the flow.

 

[Master-Cylinder]

Yes. Rolling forward, in neutral, engine at idle. It wasn't immediate and speed was 5-10 mph.
RF

Can you make it fail every tyme you try?

 

[RollieFree]

Can you make it fail every tyme you try?

It happened a few times in a row. Didn't try again. Had to drop in gear at the bottom and get going. Thats when it stopped and they worked perfectly the rest of the day. Not a sign of trouble after the coasting was over. Can't find an explanation. Still searching. Thought you might have run across this. I have not changed the fluid or flushed the ABS in about 3-4 years.
RF

 

[Master-Cylinder]

It happened a few times in a row. Didn't try again. Had to drop in gear at the bottom and get going. Thats when it stopped and they worked perfectly the rest of the day. Not a sign of trouble after the coasting was over. Can't find an explanation. Still searching. Thought you might have run across this. I have not changed the fluid or flushed the ABS in about 3-4 years.
RF

Could be a programming error on Yamaha's part. Might have a speed/gear related algorithm the software.

 

[RollieFree]

Could be a programming error on Yamaha's part. Might have a speed/gear related algorithm the software.

That was the first thing I thought of after I pumped it and they were back, then went flat again and then came back full power without a hitch after I put it in gear and rode a few yards. I have zero experience with "modern" bikes, so I'm always guessing. BTW that thing has killer brakes. I could do without the ABS part, traction control, modes, and all that but I dig the modern power, mileage and stopping power. Thanks for the help. I'll post up if I ever get to the bottom of it.
RF

 

[Master-Cylinder]

That was the first thing I thought of after I pumped it and they were back, then went flat again and then came back full power without a hitch after I put it in gear and rode a few yards. I have zero experience with "modern" bikes, so I'm always guessing. BTW that thing has killer brakes. I could do without the ABS part, traction control, modes, and all that but I dig the modern power, mileage and stopping power. Thanks for the help. I'll post up if I ever get to the bottom of it.
RF

There are some Goldwings that have integrated power assist ABS brakes. Hit them hard and it feels like you hit a wall! They will stop hard enough to detach your retinas.

 

[fr0st]

I'd start with a brake oil flush.. put in good stuff like motul RBF 600 in it..

 

[pimpslayer]

I'd start with a brake oil flush.. put in good stuff like motul RBF 600 in it..

I'd like to flush my bike out and replace it with whatever is in my 2005 Crown Vic. .....15 years old and it still works just fine.
.

 

[Terry_Schiavo]

I'd start with a brake oil flush.. put in good stuff like motul RBF 600 in it..

funny... Dot4 worked great for my buddy that races motoAmerica stock 1000. Til he started boiling te fluid... and got SRF. Yeap $90/ quart but you can use the contents and recycle the old SRF fluid and get a 50% return credit. Thats the best fluid you can get

 

[fr0st]

funny... Dot4 worked great for my buddy that races motoAmerica stock 1000. Til he started boiling te fluid... and got SRF. Yeap $90/ quart but you can use the contents and recycle the old SRF fluid and get a 50% return credit. Thats the best fluid you can get

I put that stuff in all bikes.. though its not 90$ a quart here... half a quart is like 35$ cdn..

 

[Terry_Schiavo]

I put that stuff in all bikes.. though its not 90$ a quart here... half a quart is like 35$ cdn..

I doubt that... they just got supplies back online... SRF is made by castrol

 

[fr0st]

I doubt that... they just got supplies back online... SRF is made by castrol

I was talking RBF . ;)

 

[WarpSpeed]

Just got back from The Test Ride. Rear brake worked correctly under every combination of engine running / engine off with..

Bike in gear and open throttle
Bike in gear and closed throttle
Bike in gear and clutch in
Bike in neutral, clutch in
Bike in neutral, clutch out

And I repeated all of that in Traction Control Modes 1 and 2

The beginning of the factory service manual has pages on how the ABS, linked brakes and traction control systems are designed to work. Do you have a copy? I've got it in print but also think I have a PDF version I can share if you need it.

 

[RollieFree]

Thanks for the feedback. I do have the manual. Very puzzling. Can’t recreate it now but when it happened, I probably coasted in neutral for 1/2 mile at 5 mph. They work motor on or off, any condition. Fluid is full and clean. Pads new a thousand miles ago. Cray shit. Thanks again.
RF

 

[fr0st]

I'd like to flush my bike out and replace it with whatever is in my 2005 Crown Vic. .....15 years old and it still works just fine.
.

Well if you like squishy brakes on bikes..
To each his own

 

[MadRussian]

Wonder if you got some air into brake line somehow and it got moved around, while off-roading.

 

[RollieFree]

Dealer service dept which I have found to be very helpful and on target in the past, said most likely an electronic glitch. A flush and cycle of the ABS pump and reflush should eliminate any mechanical concerns. Will do that this weekend and ride on. Thanks to everyone who replied.
RF

 

[WarpSpeed]

About once a month I just literally stand on the rear brake pedal to lock it up and get the rear ABS working. Between my weight and the damned tire having such good traction, I can barely get it to lock! May have to move to a grassy field and let the ABS have some fun. And then the front ABS.....fuck I hate cycling that on a grassy field, seems like I'm going to auger in every damned time!

 

[Master-Cylinder]

About once a month I just literally stand on the rear brake pedal to lock it up and get the rear ABS working. Between my weight and the damned tire having such good traction, I can barely get it to lock! May have to move to a grassy field and let the ABS have some fun. And then the front ABS.....fuck I hate cycling that on a grassy field, seems like I'm going to auger in every damned time!

I hit the front ABS on pavement when testing them. And if the fancy electronic ABS acts up, my built in ABS kicks in.

 

[Master-Cylinder]

So, I changed the brake fluid on this 2012 Tenere I'm working on. Had a nice hard rear brake pedal, then I decided to try the rear ABS, big mistake, now the rear pedal goes to the floor on the first push, comes right back to solid on the second pump.
What a hunk of shit. Now I need to get it sorted out...tonight! Fuck!
Front is find.

 

[Master-Cylinder]

I'm gonna connect the blue and black wires together under the seat, turn key on, engine stop off, push starter button, and it should cycle the ABS. The bleed the brake again. Wish me luck.

 

[RollieFree]

Did you cycle the ABS?
RF

 

[Master-Cylinder]

Did you cycle the ABS?
RF

Yes, did nothing for it. You connect the two wires, push the starter button for a bit, then hit the pedal or lever. Does what it should. Pedal still goes to the floor on first pump. Front is working great. Sounds like the one you rode came back by itself.

 

[RollieFree]

After I had that episode, I bled, cycled and bled again. Never a problem since.
RF

 

[caffeineracer]

You could try pressurizing the system by holding the pedal down, and cracking the banjo bolt on the caliper.
You may have an air bubble hiding in there.

 

[Master-Cylinder]

Gave up on the heap at 1:00AM.

 

[RollieFree]

You back after it today? Maybe an air leak somewhere? Any fluid on the floor this morning?
RF

 

[Ninjaman12R]

It's almost got to have air trapped somewhere. I know you know what you're doing, and you'll find the culprit. Still sucks though.

 

[Master-Cylinder]

You back after it today? Maybe an air leak somewhere? Any fluid on the floor this morning?
RF

No leaks, thing doesn't have many miles on it, sit a lot. I can pump it up and stand on the pedal, it doesn't go down, just that first hit is to the floor. Brakes still work, pedal just goes too far. I have to mow my yard and stuff, then it is supposed to rain pretty soon, so he put off getting it until at least tomorrow. I'll be back on the thing in a hour or two.

I also have a BMW F750 Sport here, it is a whole lot better motorcycle than that Tenere. Almost as fast, weighs much less.

 

[Master-Cylinder]

 

[RollieFree]

Did you get it sorted?
RF

 

[Master-Cylinder]

Did you get it sorted?
RF

Nope, tried some stuff. Now just found a manual to find the proper way to bleed the brakes. Have to do the right front caliper, then left front, then rear. I looked at the brake hydraulic circuit in the manual, what a cluster fuck of shit. Getting on it now.

 

[RollieFree]

I should have told you about that but I just assumed you already knew or had a service manual. Sorry man. Do them in order and it will be good. Are you cycling new fluid through the whole system?
RF